Yes, it does. After three seconds. like to CSC my motors off after a normal landing.
Why does DJI allow a CSC in flight?
- Thread starter DaveN
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i normally fly "regular" rc radios where the throttle stick is all the way down for "no power" OR in the middle with a kill switch (for collective pitch helicopters).
both methods have been used for decades and are working very well imo. its faster for me to kill throttle than perform a CSC since i can turn it back on instantly anyway. not only that, but i can lower the throttle gradually or up it gradually - a lot safer for windy take offs, etc.
Can the CSC be used in flight, to quickly descend from a high altitude and then restart motors to regain control later or immediately after?
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N017RW
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If you've ever flown a Phantom you'd realize that in-flight CSC is the result of a paniced pilot who was already in trouble.
Good luck ever convincing a company that they should remove the emergency management features from their products.
It ain't gonna happen.
Good luck ever convincing a company that they should remove the emergency management features from their products.
It ain't gonna happen.
There are lots of things that could be added. How about a parachute deployment if the thing shuts off at altitude? At some point, you have go say, ok flying is a wonderful but very unforgiving pastime. Be careful.
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Before we shoot or support CSC, we need to analyze in what situations it would benefit us.
Since CSC cuts the motors off, presumably the drone will fall down in a straight line. Now the question is: when do we want such a behavior to occur?
One would have to assume that you would want that 'feature' when you lost control of your device, otherwise, you could just steer it to avoid any issue.
If you lost control of your device, the question is: will it even recognize the CSC command? I would venture and say - it wouldn't. So we have to conclude that for CSC to be useful, the drone would need to be under your control but not necessarily behaving as you want, for example due to strong winds. In this case trying to bring the drone down could be helpful, especially if it was drifting towards a large body of water. However, my sense is that you would attempt to land it, before attempting to crash it.... You might even attempt full throttle away from the body of water while trying to land it.
Should you decide on a CSC, it is probably a good idea to do it when the drone is really close to you. Otherwise, the CSC could itself result in a worse situation, for example by falling on someone's head. In the case above, of a drifting drone, I don't think that an extra confirmation could be an issue. It could be implemented as simply as sounding a stringent buzzer from you device as soon as CSC is detected. If it was unintentional, I am sure everyone would take their hands off the control instinctively. If they continued to hold it for say another second, it could then send the CSC command.
My analysis shows that there is no detriment to having a CSC with a warning to prevent unintentional uses, however I was able to come up with only one scenario. So lets open this up: what other scenarios do you see where CSC could be helpful?
Since CSC cuts the motors off, presumably the drone will fall down in a straight line. Now the question is: when do we want such a behavior to occur?
One would have to assume that you would want that 'feature' when you lost control of your device, otherwise, you could just steer it to avoid any issue.
If you lost control of your device, the question is: will it even recognize the CSC command? I would venture and say - it wouldn't. So we have to conclude that for CSC to be useful, the drone would need to be under your control but not necessarily behaving as you want, for example due to strong winds. In this case trying to bring the drone down could be helpful, especially if it was drifting towards a large body of water. However, my sense is that you would attempt to land it, before attempting to crash it.... You might even attempt full throttle away from the body of water while trying to land it.
Should you decide on a CSC, it is probably a good idea to do it when the drone is really close to you. Otherwise, the CSC could itself result in a worse situation, for example by falling on someone's head. In the case above, of a drifting drone, I don't think that an extra confirmation could be an issue. It could be implemented as simply as sounding a stringent buzzer from you device as soon as CSC is detected. If it was unintentional, I am sure everyone would take their hands off the control instinctively. If they continued to hold it for say another second, it could then send the CSC command.
My analysis shows that there is no detriment to having a CSC with a warning to prevent unintentional uses, however I was able to come up with only one scenario. So lets open this up: what other scenarios do you see where CSC could be helpful?
If a person needs to use CSC and was forced to go through a bunch of hoops to make it happen then it would no longer be a safety feature, and would now simply be another process for shutdown. A "SAFETY" is intended to make instant action. Thats the ONLY situation needed to be described.
There is a big red button at every gas station in the US.. a CSC for fuel pumps.. do you have to go ask permission before pushing it? Maybe a special button pushing sequence? Maybe having to have the manager open the cover so you can access it?? Nope... Its a safety feature for INSTANT reaction.
This is like asking a person to justify their decision to carry a gun... give me a bunch of reason... The ONLY reason needed is because I want to!
Those that cant understand this really have no business in the air. That because they don't get the need for safety, the need to be able to simply cease doing whatever is happening.
There is a big red button at every gas station in the US.. a CSC for fuel pumps.. do you have to go ask permission before pushing it? Maybe a special button pushing sequence? Maybe having to have the manager open the cover so you can access it?? Nope... Its a safety feature for INSTANT reaction.
This is like asking a person to justify their decision to carry a gun... give me a bunch of reason... The ONLY reason needed is because I want to!
Those that cant understand this really have no business in the air. That because they don't get the need for safety, the need to be able to simply cease doing whatever is happening.
A spring loaded push button would be even better in a location that it could not be accidently pushedCSC based on sensors doesnt work. CSC allows to turn off motors if your quad is upside down (=non-barometer sees unlimited altitude, and barometer needs calibration indoors/isnt as reliable)
if anything id' be nice for the CSC to be a non-stick command or to have a regular throttle stick
Although I agree that your idea isnt a bad one, it would not work with any systems that exist. CSC is part of almost all electric RC Rx/Tx systems on the market. Its always a combination of stick movements. A "button" would require a channel to be wasted
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This is so much a response of "let's shoot first and ask questions later"...
If you need your gun and your CSC and whatever else, that's fine by me - as long as I'm not in your area...
Just because a feature exists doesn't justify it's existence.
I want to analyze it. I want to have an open discussion. If you do not want to contribute- that is fine by me - but don't go shutting other people's mouths just because they have a different opinion than yours!
CSC is fine just like it is now, if you can't handle it just get a solo and it will crash without CSC after all... Lol
So you want conversation, as long as its conversation that fits YOUR line of thought. Sorry, it doesn't work that way. CSC has always existed.. its NOT going away. Its not a drone thing, not a DJI thing, and not a Phantom thing. Rather than crying about it existing you would be far better off looking at ways to ensure that you don't trigger it. Use the simulator and see what maneuvers could lead to an accidental CSC and how it could better performed safely. Then Practice THAT maneuver CONSTANTLY. Muscle memory.. automatic reflex.. those are your tools. Use them! And stop crying when someone points out reality. Like it or not... THATS the way it is.
As originator of this thread, my intention was to start a discussion on the logic of the CSC and its relationship to motor start or shut down and if the logic should change if the P3 knows it’s airborne.
There have been a lot of valid points made by experienced RC pilots who say the CSC is important for emergency shutdowns while in flight. I will yield to their experience. That said I still believe the logic for the CSC as defined by DJI should be re-considered.
DJI does not consider the CSC (Combination Stick Command) an emergency procedure according to their P3 manual. Rather it’s simply a procedure to start and stop the motors. They go further to point out “Do not perform a CSC when the aircraft is in midair, otherwise the motors will suddenly stop”. Sure DJI would never want to point out that your new aircraft might experience an emergency, why would they? But as the experienced pilots pointed out, it can save the aircraft and collateral damage in some extreme scenarios.
Getting back to the original reason for this thread; the re-consideration of the CSC logic. If we accept the fact that the P3 will be popular and accessible to many new pilots and the easy activation of the two CSC engagement methods, it’s only logical to assume that accidental CSC activations will happen on an increasing basis. To improve the P3, and to keep the experienced pilots appeased, I agree with Foosy in that there should be “a CSC with a warning to prevent unintentional uses”. Therefore I would suggest that the P3 designers consider this:
If the aircraft does not detect the ground within X feet
OR
the aircraft has excessive lateral and/or vertical motion
AND
a CSC was commanded: a very loud aural warning of an impending CSC would sound almost immediately after its engagement. Three seconds after the start of the CSC command, the motors would shut down.
This would allow those CSC diehards to shut down their motors to prevent a difficult situation as well as warn the newbie that if you continue, you will shut your motors down with the aircraft in flight or in motion.
There are a host of sensors that can help determine the flight status, proximity to terra firma and aircraft attitude and lateral motion that can be used. I’m just thinking that the CSC engagement in flight/motion should be reconsidered.
There have been a lot of valid points made by experienced RC pilots who say the CSC is important for emergency shutdowns while in flight. I will yield to their experience. That said I still believe the logic for the CSC as defined by DJI should be re-considered.
DJI does not consider the CSC (Combination Stick Command) an emergency procedure according to their P3 manual. Rather it’s simply a procedure to start and stop the motors. They go further to point out “Do not perform a CSC when the aircraft is in midair, otherwise the motors will suddenly stop”. Sure DJI would never want to point out that your new aircraft might experience an emergency, why would they? But as the experienced pilots pointed out, it can save the aircraft and collateral damage in some extreme scenarios.
Getting back to the original reason for this thread; the re-consideration of the CSC logic. If we accept the fact that the P3 will be popular and accessible to many new pilots and the easy activation of the two CSC engagement methods, it’s only logical to assume that accidental CSC activations will happen on an increasing basis. To improve the P3, and to keep the experienced pilots appeased, I agree with Foosy in that there should be “a CSC with a warning to prevent unintentional uses”. Therefore I would suggest that the P3 designers consider this:
If the aircraft does not detect the ground within X feet
OR
the aircraft has excessive lateral and/or vertical motion
AND
a CSC was commanded: a very loud aural warning of an impending CSC would sound almost immediately after its engagement. Three seconds after the start of the CSC command, the motors would shut down.
This would allow those CSC diehards to shut down their motors to prevent a difficult situation as well as warn the newbie that if you continue, you will shut your motors down with the aircraft in flight or in motion.
There are a host of sensors that can help determine the flight status, proximity to terra firma and aircraft attitude and lateral motion that can be used. I’m just thinking that the CSC engagement in flight/motion should be reconsidered.
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CSC is perfect as it is now, for new pilots just fly in a simulator before crashing the aircraft in someone's head.
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We differ in our approaches.
I understand you - you want a CSC. You want to be able to use it when YOU want to. You want to apply CSC in midair, just because. Fine. After all, it's the 4th of July and we are in the USA - so freedom to all. I am not debating that point.
I was trying to analyze when would someone NEED to use CSC in midair. I was barely finding one scenario. I was, and still am looking for other scenarios. I want to see the value of it.
As to you, or others objecting to a safety feature - that is beyond me. It is almost as if you are saying: if there are stupid people there, let them crash their drone: that is their problem. If it were that simple, I might agree with you, BUT - an inadvertent CSC might actually result in hurting, or killing someone. For that, and only that reason alone, I would strongly advocate making CSC a safer feature.
I never said I "Want" CSC. I simply said that its an integral part of electric RC world. It almost always has been. Why it was originally introduced... I have no idea. At the end of the day though, I know its there. And if I need it I know how to access it. I also know, because I know how to access it, how to NOT accidentally trigger it. As for hurting or killing someone.. Sure, someone might get hurt. Killed?? INSANELY unlikely! Its far more likely for someone to get hurt simply because the bird is in the air.
As for situations potentially needing CSC...
Your being in the flight path of a real aircraft
A family member or yourself suddenly needing medical attention.
Sudden extreme wind conditions.
To prevent impact with something... ie.. yesterday I was demoing my P3P for some friends and ended up hitting a swing. The rope somehow ended up against the body of the Phantom but didn't touch the props. I did a CSC rather than trying to fly it away from the rope to prevent hitting the rope and getting it wound up in the prop. She fell strait down and did no damage.
Why DJI doesn't describe CSC as a safety feature really doesn't matter. CSC IS a second way to shut down the motors. I use CS to shut down what I hand catch because it shuts down instantly. Performing a down throttle shutdown requires 3 seconds of non-movement. Something that isn't quite as easy while flying in the wind as the birds is fighting to corrects its position.
EVERYONE is better off learning to properly use and avoid accidentally triggering CSC than they would ever be by trying to second guess its existence and find alternative ways to implement it. It is, it always has been, and it always will be. So learn to function safely WITH it.
As for situations potentially needing CSC...
Your being in the flight path of a real aircraft
A family member or yourself suddenly needing medical attention.
Sudden extreme wind conditions.
To prevent impact with something... ie.. yesterday I was demoing my P3P for some friends and ended up hitting a swing. The rope somehow ended up against the body of the Phantom but didn't touch the props. I did a CSC rather than trying to fly it away from the rope to prevent hitting the rope and getting it wound up in the prop. She fell strait down and did no damage.
Why DJI doesn't describe CSC as a safety feature really doesn't matter. CSC IS a second way to shut down the motors. I use CS to shut down what I hand catch because it shuts down instantly. Performing a down throttle shutdown requires 3 seconds of non-movement. Something that isn't quite as easy while flying in the wind as the birds is fighting to corrects its position.
EVERYONE is better off learning to properly use and avoid accidentally triggering CSC than they would ever be by trying to second guess its existence and find alternative ways to implement it. It is, it always has been, and it always will be. So learn to function safely WITH it.
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OK, Now we have a discussion.
Let me try to address each one of your scenarios.
1. Your being in the flight path of a real aircraft -- yes, that is a possibility. We are not trying to figure out why you are there in the first place, but this definitely is a scenario, albeit I do have the following doubts: Are you able to judge distances that far away? When the bird is anything over 100ft away from you, telling if something is in its path is pretty darn hard. Would you still want a CSC? sure
2. A family member or yourself suddenly needing medical attention. -- Can't relate to this one. You could just let your hands off and it will hover. Why crash it? If battery runs out, it will return home or land. Still better than crashing it.
3. Sudden extreme wind conditions -- I actually ran in such a situation with the P2 in the Canadian rockies. My reaction was to land it as fast as I could not crash it. While the wind was so strong that I could not get it to come to me, I could at least fight it and reduce the drone drifting away. I may still have used CSC if I saw it was going to an unrecoverable place, at least to save the SD card with the footage.
4. To prevent impact with something -- That's a tricky one. If the impact would result in the drone crashing, CSC or not it is the same result. Since again we are not debating why we are flying close to objects, this is a potential scenario to use CSC.
Finally one word about safety: If that drone falls from the sky and hits someone in the head, you better believe it can kill them.
From 50m, a drone weighing 1.5kg generates 1.5x9.81x50 = 735 Joules of potential energy, while hitting someone at a speed of 111 Km/hour or close to 70 miles per hour. That will kill!
Let me try to address each one of your scenarios.
1. Your being in the flight path of a real aircraft -- yes, that is a possibility. We are not trying to figure out why you are there in the first place, but this definitely is a scenario, albeit I do have the following doubts: Are you able to judge distances that far away? When the bird is anything over 100ft away from you, telling if something is in its path is pretty darn hard. Would you still want a CSC? sure
2. A family member or yourself suddenly needing medical attention. -- Can't relate to this one. You could just let your hands off and it will hover. Why crash it? If battery runs out, it will return home or land. Still better than crashing it.
3. Sudden extreme wind conditions -- I actually ran in such a situation with the P2 in the Canadian rockies. My reaction was to land it as fast as I could not crash it. While the wind was so strong that I could not get it to come to me, I could at least fight it and reduce the drone drifting away. I may still have used CSC if I saw it was going to an unrecoverable place, at least to save the SD card with the footage.
4. To prevent impact with something -- That's a tricky one. If the impact would result in the drone crashing, CSC or not it is the same result. Since again we are not debating why we are flying close to objects, this is a potential scenario to use CSC.
Finally one word about safety: If that drone falls from the sky and hits someone in the head, you better believe it can kill them.
From 50m, a drone weighing 1.5kg generates 1.5x9.81x50 = 735 Joules of potential energy, while hitting someone at a speed of 111 Km/hour or close to 70 miles per hour. That will kill!
Meta4
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Your assumption is that accidental CSC activations will happen on an increasing basis is a big flaw in this argument.
Do you have any data, numbers of incidents that support this assumption?
Of the 26000 members here, I have only seen 2 or three reports of accidental CSC in flight for the P3.
And when was the last one? Quite a few weeks back.
Accidental CSC was extremely rare for the P2 series and still is for the P3 series.
Even rarer if you could take out some spurious reports to leave just genuine accidents.
Accidental CSC is extremely rare and is not increasing.
There have been enough posts explaining that it's ridiculous to have a two step emergency shut down switch.
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