What's the difference between Phantom 3 batteries

[Varusgarcia]

Hey there!
I'm about to buy a Phantom 3 Standard to make some videos in the wild where i can't charge the battery from a socket.
I didn't want to buy a lot of extra batteries because they cost so much so I'm going to buy a car battery and a car charger to recharge the drone a couple of times. Because of that I was searching in amazon for car chargers when i noticed that in the specs it said that it's only for P3 Advanced and Professional. (I'm actually from Germany, i used this link because it's in english).
So, does anybody know what the difference is?
Or recommend some cheap car charger that works well with the Standard?

btw, i asked dji over facebook and they told me to buy their overpriced car charger (90€).... No thanks!

Thanks in advance!

 

[UKP3SOwner]

Hey there!
I'm about to buy a Phantom 3 Standard to make some videos in the wild where i can't charge the battery from a socket.
I didn't want to buy a lot of extra batteries because they cost so much so I'm going to buy a car battery and a car charger to recharge the drone a couple of times. Because of that I was searching in amazon for car chargers when i noticed that in the specs it said that it's only for P3 Advanced and Professional. (I'm actually from Germany, i used this link because it's in english).
So, does anybody know what the difference is?
Or recommend some cheap car charger that works well with the Standard?

btw, i asked dji over facebook and they told me to buy their overpriced car charger (90€).... No thanks!

Thanks in advance!

The batteries are exactly the same for all P3 models, but the new firmware checks for non genuine DJI cells and will not allow them to start the drone. Many people say that the third party cells worked well before the firmware disallowed them.

The reason DJI are sensitive about third party batteries is because sudden faiure in flight will have serious consequences and the drone will be blamed, not the battery.

The situation with chargers is similar. If a genuine battery is charged with a non genuine charger (mains or 12V car types), it is possible that the battery can be damaged by over charging. Search Google for LiPo cells to see that they sometimes catch fire when charging, so having a good charger is essential to reduce this risk.

I hope this helps.

 

[Varusgarcia]

The batteries are exactly the same for all P3 models, but the new firmware checks for non genuine DJI cells and will not allow them to start the drone. Many people say that the third party cells worked well before the firmware disallowed them.

The reason DJI are sensitive about third party batteries is because sudden faiure in flight will have serious consequences and the drone will be blamed, not the battery.

The situation with chargers is similar. If a genuine battery is charged with a non genuine charger (mains or 12V car types), it is possible that the battery can be damaged by over charging. Search Google for LiPo cells to see that they sometimes catch fire when charging, so having a good charger is essential to reduce this risk.

I hope this helps.

Thanks for your quick answer,

Ok, so the batteries are the same, so it is basically nonsense that they say "only for P3 Advanced and Professional" right?
I guess i will read some reviews and see if someone had a problem with it.

thanks again!

 

[UKP3SOwner]

Thanks for your quick answer,

Ok, so the batteries are the same, so it is basically nonsense that they say "only for P3 Advanced and Professional" right?
I guess i will read some reviews and see if someone had a problem with it.

thanks again!

Yes Varusgarcia, read everything you can and try to filter out the stuff that is plainly wrong. To be honest though, if you can afford it, you cannot do better than original equipment for peace of mind. Drones are under a great deal of scrutiny from all governments at the moment, so DJI will be doing everything they can to ensure that their product keeps the reputation of being safe and easy to fly.

 

[Meta4]

Ok, so the batteries are the same, so it is basically nonsense that they say "only for P3 Advanced and Professional" right?
I guess i will read some reviews and see if someone had a problem with it.

Originally there were only 2 P3s - the Advanced and the Pro.
The Standard and P3-4K came along later.
The text in your battery ad was probably written soon after the P3 was released.
It's saying that the batteries won't work in the earlier (lower voltage) P2 series.

 

[Varusgarcia]

Originally there were only 2 P3s - the Advanced and the Pro.
The Standard and P3-4K came along later.
The text in your battery ad was probably written soon after the P3 was released.
It's saying that the batteries won't work in the earlier (lower voltage) P2 series.

Thanks that is probably what happened.

 

[RodPad]

You might go with an inverter, not as efficient of coarse but you need higher voltage than 12 volts anyway.
You would be able to charge many other things and if packing a car battery, a inverter and small solar
panel wouldn't be that bad.

And yes there is a lot of parts that say P3A/P and P3S is not listed.

 

[Storm]

I use an inverter in my bigrig to charge mine. Since I live in this truck 5 and 6 days a week before I go home. I bring my p3s with me. Works great!

 

[solentlife]

Just to bring an old thread up again ... and answer a query I have ......

I have inverter - but it really is a poor way to convert power ... and was not planning on using it.

I regularly charge up lipo's with a B6 charger from the ciggy socket in my van / car. I have a DJI adaptor lead for my B6 and was planning on using this in the field when away from mains power and OEM DJI charger.

As I understand it - the DJI charger is really only a regulated brick and the real gubbins is in the battery itself. The battery shuts off charging at 16.8V (full 4.2v per cell level).
If the B6 is set to 4S ... which is 16.8V ... it will stop charging at that level automatically - technically at same point as the smart battery ...

Are there no others using non DJI charger in the field ? If there are - what charger do you use ?

Nigel

 

[With The Birds]

Just to bring an old thread up again ... and answer a query I have ......

I have inverter - but it really is a poor way to convert power ... and was not planning on using it.

I regularly charge up lipo's with a B6 charger from the ciggy socket in my van / car. I have a DJI adaptor lead for my B6 and was planning on using this in the field when away from mains power and OEM DJI charger.

As I understand it - the DJI charger is really only a regulated brick and the real gubbins is in the battery itself. The battery shuts off charging at 16.8V (full 4.2v per cell level).
If the B6 is set to 4S ... which is 16.8V ... it will stop charging at that level automatically - technically at same point as the smart battery ...

Are there no others using non DJI charger in the field ? If there are - what charger do you use ?

Nigel

The DJI charger output is above 17v. You probably need a slightly higher voltage to the battery (there is almost certainly a voltage regulator on the smart board) for it to charge properly.

 

[alokbhargava]

Any 17.5 v D.C. battery charger which can give 4 Plus amps can be used to charge P3 batteries. The charging logic is embedded into the battery itself. There are 3rd party chargers available like that blue charger.


Sent from my iPhone using PhantomPilots

 

[solentlife]

The DJI charger output is above 17v. You probably need a slightly higher voltage to the battery (there is almost certainly a voltage regulator on the smart board) for it to charge properly.

Chargers actually work with WATTS ....

If a B6 charger was to stay with only the 12 - 14V output of a ciggy socket and not step it up - then I would not be able to charge my 5S (21V full charged) LiPo packs .............. which I regularly do.

To charge any battery - a charger must output a higher voltage than the pack has - otherwise no charge would be passed to the pack. A charger connected to a ciggy socket will step up the voltage internally to required but will be limited in its amps output due to overall watts capability.

if I set my B6 to charge my 5S pack in the car to more than 3A ... then the charger shows low voltage input as the voltage drop across the socket is too great. Keep the amps to less than 3A and all is well and I get a charged pack of 21V.

The standard DJI pack is 4S (16.8V full) and of 4480mAh capacity. 1C charge rate is 4.5A ...... higher than I would set my B6 in the car as that would drag out about 76W or more from the socket. My setting would likely be more like 2A keeping the power draw to reasonable levels. I would accept the longer charge time.
The voltage given out by the B6 is set by S rating ... 1S, 2S, 3S, 4S etc up to 6S. The voltage is as required to overcome charge resistance.

Nigel

 

[Vzr1]

A cheap charger that works well.....is there such a thing? I have found your better off with genuine when messing with chargers or batteries

 

[With The Birds]

Chargers actually work with WATTS ....

If a B6 charger was to stay with only the 12 - 14V output of a ciggy socket and not step it up - then I would not be able to charge my 5S (21V full charged) LiPo packs .............. which I regularly do.

To charge any battery - a charger must output a higher voltage than the pack has - otherwise no charge would be passed to the pack. A charger connected to a ciggy socket will step up the voltage internally to required but will be limited in its amps output due to overall watts capability.

if I set my B6 to charge my 5S pack in the car to more than 3A ... then the charger shows low voltage input as the voltage drop across the socket is too great. Keep the amps to less than 3A and all is well and I get a charged pack of 21V.

The standard DJI pack is 4S (16.8V full) and of 4480mAh capacity. 1C charge rate is 4.5A ...... higher than I would set my B6 in the car as that would drag out about 76W or more from the socket. My setting would likely be more like 2A keeping the power draw to reasonable levels. I would accept the longer charge time.
The voltage given out by the B6 is set by S rating ... 1S, 2S, 3S, 4S etc up to 6S. The voltage is as required to overcome charge resistance.

Nigel

Your B6 in LiPO's mode will be doing a lot more than supplying a voltage slightly above the pack rating. To charge LiPO's you initially need to regulate the current delivered (reducing if the cells approach the safe threshold voltage) and switch to constant voltage once rated cell voltage is reached. Any decent charger won't, and doesn't need to exceed the rated pack voltage (and to do so will, at best, reduce the health of the pack and may even result in fire).

The smarts in your B6 are effectively mirrored in the phantom battery. To use the B6 to charge a phantom pack you would be best to set it to lead acid setting with a voltage of 17.4 (or close to it) if this is possible. The 4S mode will likely not work well, if at all as the B6 won't be connected directly to the pack, the charging board in the phantom battery will confuse it.

 

[solentlife]

Your B6 in LiPO's mode will be doing a lot more than supplying a voltage slightly above the pack rating. To charge LiPO's you initially need to regulate the current delivered (reducing if the cells approach the safe threshold voltage) and switch to constant voltage once rated cell voltage is reached. Any decent charger won't, and doesn't need to exceed the rated pack voltage (and to do so will, at best, reduce the health of the pack and may even result in fire).

Sorry but B6 and its brothers do swap CV and CA formats as charge progresses. Its one of the most important parts of being an intelligent LiPo charger.

The smarts in your B6 are effectively mirrored in the phantom battery. To use the B6 to charge a phantom pack you would be best to set it to lead acid setting with a voltage of 17.4 (or close to it) if this is possible. The 4S mode will likely not work well, if at all as the B6 won't be connected directly to the pack, the charging board in the phantom battery will confuse it.

Now we are onto something better than just commenting. I agree that because the DJI battery carries the 'smart' part in the case - then we need to look at how the charge is supplied to it.
First - I would not use BALANCE charge as there is no balance lead to connect.
Second - I would not use Lead Acid as that is a nominal figure only that displays and relies on the Lead Acid battery back-emf to decide cut-off. I do not wish to see my DJI pack go BOOM !
Third - I would be looking at using LiPo Charge format without balance. That would supply to the battery based on the 4S and amps rate I would set. It would then basically be steady charge till it nears max 4S and then swap over to finish the charge - with battery 'smart' part cutting in as well as charger cutting out.

That's the theory - I'm not at home to test it out - so its based on my knowledge of how the LiPo chargers work.

As yo exceeding pack voltage .... sorry but you are wrong. A charger cannot put charge in without overcoming the packs internal resistance and back-emf. That's according to the studies I had in Plymouth Polytechnic when taking my exams for Diplomas. The charger will output slightly more than the voltage it detects ... as the battery voltage increases with charging - the charger will also increase its voltage till it is just slightly over max battery voltage.
A LiPo is actually safe to 4.235V ... and any decent LiPo charger is accordingly set to charge a lipo to 4.2V based on the 4.235V charge load.


But as you say - the batterys 'smart' part may in fact confuse the charger. That is something I wish to find out when I get home. The B6 and its brethren are smart enough to default out when somethings not quite right. I don't rely on that - but I know it to be true.
There are some packs and setups that B6's etc. cannot charge because of intermediate software / boards ... this may well be such case.

Nigel

 

[With The Birds]

Sorry but B6 and its brothers do swap CV and CA formats as charge progresses. Its one of the most important parts of being an intelligent LiPo charger.



Now we are onto something better than just commenting. I agree that because the DJI battery carries the 'smart' part in the case - then we need to look at how the charge is supplied to it.
First - I would not use BALANCE charge as there is no balance lead to connect.
Second - I would not use Lead Acid as that is a nominal figure only that displays and relies on the Lead Acid battery back-emf to decide cut-off. I do not wish to see my DJI pack go BOOM !
Third - I would be looking at using LiPo Charge format without balance. That would supply to the battery based on the 4S and amps rate I would set. It would then basically be steady charge till it nears max 4S and then swap over to finish the charge - with battery 'smart' part cutting in as well as charger cutting out.

That's the theory - I'm not at home to test it out - so its based on my knowledge of how the LiPo chargers work.

As yo exceeding pack voltage .... sorry but you are wrong. A charger cannot put charge in without overcoming the packs internal resistance and back-emf. That's according to the studies I had in Plymouth Polytechnic when taking my exams for Diplomas. The charger will output slightly more than the voltage it detects ... as the battery voltage increases with charging - the charger will also increase its voltage till it is just slightly over max battery voltage.
A LiPo is actually safe to 4.235V ... and any decent LiPo charger is accordingly set to charge a lipo to 4.2V based on the 4.235V charge load.


But as you say - the batterys 'smart' part may in fact confuse the charger. That is something I wish to find out when I get home. The B6 and its brethren are smart enough to default out when somethings not quite right. I don't rely on that - but I know it to be true.
There are some packs and setups that B6's etc. cannot charge because of intermediate software / boards ... this may well be such case.

Nigel

We are singing the same the same song now (even if the harmonies are slightly off).

Personally I wouldn't use the B6 to attempt to charge any smart battery unless it has a dumb mode that allows no functionality other than to output a regulated set voltage.

I suspect I understand what you earlier called charge resistance. I haven't looked at it recently. I am more than mildly confident it has nothing to do with back emf, this is the tendency of a motor to act as a generator in operation. If I recall correctly less acid batteries need a higher than rated voltage applied to charge correctly, The LiFePO batteries I use for remote power also will not charge to full capacity unless higher than rated terminal voltage is applied to charge. This is not the case with LiION (LiPo are a form of LiION cell). Over voltage will give spectacular results (unplanned spontaneous disassembly).

 

[solentlife]

Ah Ha ... now we are getting somewhere ..... if you leave out TERMINAL voltage in your post - then LiPo follows exact same course as any other rechargeable battery. It will have a slightly higher voltage applied to it than its actual state. It has to otherwise the sum of the parts is ZERO.
When it reaches TERMINAL voltage the charger cuts off - BUT the voltage it is putting out is based on the 4.235v to ensure the LiPo reaches 4.2V final state.

Whether LiIon or not - the theory is same. Back EMF is the voltage force supplied in resistance to a voltage force applied to it. Whether motor or battery - the two actually create the similar effect. The batterys is the voltage level at that moment.

Honest -

Nigel

 

[solentlife]

Personally I wouldn't use the B6 to attempt to charge any smart battery unless it has a dumb mode that allows no functionality other than to output a regulated set voltage.

Most intelligent LiPo chargers have the dumb LiPo Charge mode without balance. That supplies a regulated voltage that is set to a batterys S rating ... in the DJI case - that is 4S ... 16.8V max charged voltage.

You say yourself that the DJI brick supplies 17.4V .... and that's a dumb power brick.

Lets suppose the battery 'smart' part fails in some way and the dumb brick keeps pumping 17.4V at it ... and LiPo doesn't stop being charged at 100% ................ ??

But if the 'smart' failed when connected to a B6 with setting of 4S and the B6 saw a battery voltage of 16.8V - it would cut out as finished.

Well we hope so !!

Nigel

 

[With The Birds]

Ah Ha ... now we are getting somewhere ..... if you leave out TERMINAL voltage in your post - then LiPo follows exact same course as any other rechargeable battery. It will have a slightly higher voltage applied to it than its actual state. It has to otherwise the sum of the parts is ZERO.
When it reaches TERMINAL voltage the charger cuts off - BUT the voltage it is putting out is based on the 4.235v to ensure the LiPo reaches 4.2V final state.

Whether LiIon or not - the theory is same. Back EMF is the voltage force supplied in resistance to a voltage force applied to it. Whether motor or battery - the two actually create the similar effect. The batterys is the voltage level at that moment.

Honest -

Nigel

You seem pretty confident re the application of a slight over voltage during charge. It seems logical (given its true for so many other battery chemistries). I will pay closer attention to the balance tap voltages next time I am charging some dumb packs and will do just one (I have become quite fond of parallel charging multiple packs). It won't suprise me if you are right on this.

I can promise you though back emf does not apply to batteries and is nothing to do with resistance. It relates principally to electric motors, specifically the voltage produced (tendency to act as a generator) while in operation.

 

[solentlife]

Thank you ... I didn't spend 4 years in College wasted !

EMF is in all batterys / motors / gennys ... its a fact of life that all charging / powering up has to live with. Without it - a) motor could literally speed up to infinite rpm, b) a battery would just charge at whatever amps / volts a supply could throw at it, c) a genny would have no real control .... literally. My use of word resistance is not meant as the actual term Electrical Resistance ... it was meant as a general open term to say a battery resisting the charge input and causing the charger to have to exceed the batterys vaoltage at that time.

Nigel