Confusing dji article

[Duchunter]

Just to clarify, if you take off from outside one of these zones and then fly into a zone while in ATTI, you are still under control? Or does it RTH?

It won't fly into a nfz at all, period. Not in atti mode, not in any mode. Who knows what happens if your flying and the area suddenly becomes an nfz while your in it. I imagine dji has addressed this issue but who knows if what they decided to make the drone do is desirable or if its one of those "wth were they thinking" type of solutions?

I imagine dji is doing all this self policing for self preservation. If countries start banning drones then that clearly doesn't end well for dji. Its gonna be a futile effort if other manufactures don't get onboard.

You know, some people have reasons for feeling the way they do about things and it doesn't make them stupid or paranoid or whatever. You wouldn't tell a rape victim that they are stupid for being nervous around strange men. A lot of name calling going on around here, I'm guilty of it myself. Were all adults. Let's keep it civil. Don't force your beliefs on anybody and don't dismiss someone who doesn't think the way you do. Diversity and unique ideas make us human, well that and opposable thumbs and a few other thing but you get my point.

 

[jwmcgrath]

You know, some people have reasons for feeling the way they do about things and it doesn't make them stupid or paranoid or whatever. You wouldn't tell a rape victim that they are stupid for being nervous around strange men. A lot of name calling going on around here, I'm guilty of it myself. Were all adults. Let's keep it civil. Don't force your beliefs on anybody and don't dismiss someone who doesn't think the way you do. Diversity and unique ideas make us human, well that and opposable thumbs and a few other thing but you get my point.

This should be the headline of a LOT of threads (spinning killer props).

And worse, the frustrations built up in some threads spill over to others. You almost have to be reading all the threads all the time just to understand the references.

Sometimes you need to take a break from it once in a while. I have.

 

[jwmcgrath]

I will admit though that I'm still a little hazy on HOW the real-time updates apply themselves to the aircraft.

Maybe it's just a terminology, language or communication issue, but if an area becomes a NFZ zone while my aircraft is in it, how does my aircraft become "aware" of that?

To my knowledge, there is no instructional downlink from a positioning satellite.

Furthermore, I'm wondering how the real-time NFZ updates could be applied to my aircraft if it is never connected to the internet, even after this latest update is applied.

It's easy to understand that updated NFZ's are installed in the AC's firmware each time the firmware is updated, but with this release, I don't understand how the updated info is communicated to the aircraft.

 

[sar104]

I will admit though that I'm still a little hazy on HOW the real-time updates apply themselves to the aircraft.

Maybe it's just a terminology, language or communication issue, but if an area becomes a NFZ zone while my aircraft is in it, how does my aircraft become "aware" of that?

To my knowledge, there is no instructional downlink from a positioning satellite.

Furthermore, I'm wondering how the real-time NFZ updates could be applied to my aircraft if it is never connected to the internet, even after this latest update is applied.

It's easy to understand that updated NFZ's are installed in the AC's firmware each time the firmware is updated, but with this release, I don't understand how the updated info is communicated to the aircraft.

Any updates to the NFZ are going to be communicated to the app, not to the aircraft, which does not have a direct internet connection. If the app has an internet connection while you are flying then, in principle, an updated NFZ could be available, but I would expect that something is in place to prevent it from being a problem in terms of unpredictable behavior from the aircraft. And TFRs, which are the most likely reason for a new NFZ, are not implemented without some warning.

 

[jwmcgrath]

Any updates to the NFZ are going to be communicated to the app, not to the aircraft, which does not have a direct internet connection. If the app has an internet connection while you are flying then, in principle, an updated NFZ could be available, but I would expect that something is in place to prevent it from being a problem in terms of unpredictable behavior from the aircraft. And TFRs, which are the most likely reason for a new NFZ, are not implemented without some warning.

Got it.

So I'm to assume that even if I do all the current updates (as I usually do, just haven't yet) but don't have an internet connection in the future, updated NFZ's or TFR's will be ineffective unless and until then next internet connection...

This scenario is quite likely for me. I use a dedicated iPad mini 2 "wifi only" for flying, it stays in the drone case when not in use, has auto updates disabled, is usually charged in the truck and rarely sees internet connectivity.

Even if I choose to tether it to my phone for in-flight maps, apps don't update unless auto updates are enabled and the device is plugged in, connected and asleep.

 

[schlepprock]

I haven't read this entire thread, I've only been skimming. But with DJI and our UAVs (Phantom 4 for me) there is no "real time" NFZ updates.. It can't happen. The UAV would have to be in constant contact with and controlled by a DJI satellite... Nope can't happen.

 

[sar104]

Got it.

So I'm to assume that even if I do all the current updates (as I usually do, just haven't yet) but don't have an internet connection in the future, updated NFZ's or TFR's will be ineffective unless and until then next internet connection...

This scenario is quite likely for me. I use a dedicated iPad mini 2 "wifi only" for flying, it stays in the drone case when not in use, has auto updates disabled, is usually charged in the truck and rarely sees internet connectivity.

Even if I choose to tether it to my phone for in-flight maps, apps don't update unless auto updates are enabled and the device is plugged in, connected and asleep.

If you tether the iPad to your phone then it does have an internet connection and, presumably, could update the database. One point of this seems to be to allow NFZ updates without updating the firmware of software version, so not have app auto updates turned on is not going to prevent the Go app from acquiring new data. They certainly are not going to be updated without an internet connection, however.

 

[mdowney58]

.......Let's keep it civil. Don't force your beliefs on anybody and don't dismiss someone who doesn't think the way you do........

Those sound like someone forcing a belief on others to me![emoji50]

 

[jwmcgrath]

If you tether the iPad to your phone then it does have an internet connection and, presumably, could update the database. One point of this seems to be to allow NFZ updates without updating the firmware of software version, so not have app auto updates turned on is not going to prevent the Go app from acquiring new data. They certainly are not going to be updated without an internet connection, however.

And with that, all of my curiosities have been addressed. I'll go back to lurking now.

 

[K9VXV]

It won't fly into a nfz at all, period. Not in atti mode, not in any mode. Who knows what happens if your flying and the area suddenly becomes an nfz while your in it. I imagine dji has addressed this issue but who knows if what they decided to make the drone do is desirable or if its one of those "wth were they thinking" type of solutions?

I imagine dji is doing all this self policing for self preservation. If countries start banning drones then that clearly doesn't end well for dji. Its gonna be a futile effort if other manufactures don't get onboard.

You know, some people have reasons for feeling the way they do about things and it doesn't make them stupid or paranoid or whatever. You wouldn't tell a rape victim that they are stupid for being nervous around strange men. A lot of name calling going on around here, I'm guilty of it myself. Were all adults. Let's keep it civil. Don't force your beliefs on anybody and don't dismiss someone who doesn't think the way you do. Diversity and unique ideas make us human, well that and opposable thumbs and a few other thing but you get my point.

I hear you there. I have never implied for anyone to heed my advice or follow my direction. I am simply asking about ATTI mode because it's in direct contrast to other reports claiming they , as long as they were in ATTI mode the whole time they could fly through these zones but once they returned to P or S while in zone they lost control. They claim they can even start in ATTI mode in restricted areas and that the P4 manual has something related to it (I was not able to find it) but anyway I am working with a P4P and have no restricted areas around me to test with. Not like I would want to. I am just curious on how I can work to avoid a situation that I may lose my Phantom in in case I am a goober and fail to check the zone map before flying father than I would normally.


Just curious is all. I'll assume it's not possible as it wouldn't make sense and I can not test it.

Jesse

 

[sar104]

I hear you there. I have never implied for anyone to heed my advice or follow my direction. I am simply asking about ATTI mode because it's in direct contrast to other reports claiming they , as long as they were in ATTI mode the whole time they could fly through these zones but once they returned to P or S while in zone they lost control. They claim they can even start in ATTI mode in restricted areas and that the P4 manual has something related to it (I was not able to find it) but anyway I am working with a P4P and have no restricted areas around me to test with. Not like I would want to. I am just curious on how I can work to avoid a situation that I may lose my Phantom in in case I am a goober and fail to check the zone map before flying father than I would normally.


Just curious is all. I'll assume it's not possible as it wouldn't make sense and I can not test it.

Jesse

ATTI mode changes the way that the FC flies the aircraft in that it only controls altitude and attitude and does not hold position horizontally, but it is still receiving GPS data and knows where it is. It will refuse to take off in a NFZ, but that obviously raises the question, if it is not controlling position then what does it do if it approaches a NFZ, since preventing incursion into the NFZ clearly amounts to controlling position. I've never attempted that so I don't know the answer.

 

[Duchunter]

I was right on the edge of an nfz and i launched in atti mode. I wanted to see what happened if I tried to fly into an nfz (it was a Sunday and this airport is closed on Sunday). My p4 completely stopped and refused to go any further once it reached the nfz. I wasn't trying to fly in the nfz, I just wanted to see what happened. Now I know

 

[sar104]

I was right on the edge of an nfz and i launched in atti mode. I wanted to see what happened if I tried to fly into an nfz (it was a Sunday and this airport is closed on Sunday). My p4 completely stopped and refused to go any further once it reached the nfz. I wasn't trying to fly in the nfz, I just wanted to see what happened. Now I know

So effectively it transitioned into P-GPS mode and did then control it's position, at least normal to the NFZ boundary. That makes sense.

 

[Loz]

?.launched in atti mode..to see what happened if I tried to fly into an nfz..p4 completely stopped and refused to go any further once it reached the nfz..I just wanted to see what happened. Now I know

Thank-you for sharing this, now others will know too, very helpful and constructive [emoji106]

 

[DKG13CC]

So effectively it transitioned into P-GPS mode and did then control it's position, at least normal to the NFZ boundary. That makes sense.

I figured just because it was flying without the GPS at the moment, that didnt disable it entirely. It is still gonna run smack-dab into the digital wall. Good testing.

 

[Loz]

I figured just because it was flying without the compass at the moment, that didnt disable it entirely. It is still gonna run smack-dab into the digital wall. Good testing.

Just to be clear we are not talking about compass loss or failure which is essential for controlled flight, we are talking about GPS loss (ie position vs direction).

 

[sar104]

Just to be clear we are not talking about compass loss or failure which is essential for controlled flight, we are talking about GPS loss (ie position vs direction).

That's correct. In ATTI mode the FC still has all the sensor data (compass and GPS) - it's just ignoring the GPS. It's not ignoring the compass since that, together with the IMU, controls rotational stability.

It may be worth recapping the essential behavior in P-GPS and ATTI modes, since both are synthetic in the sense that you are instructing the FC to perform certain actions, as opposed to directly controlling the motors.

In P-GPS, sticks centered means hold 3-D position (altitude and location) and orientation. Positive elevator (right stick forwards in standard mode) means move (track) in the direction that the aircraft is pointing. Applying aileron means move normally to the direction that the aircraft is pointing.

In ATTI mode, sticks centered means hold the aircraft level and maintain altitude and orientation, so in equilibrium it will drift with the wind. Positive elevator means apply thrust in the direction that the aircraft is pointing, but it may track in a different direction due either to a cross wind or because it was already moving in a different direction. If it is already moving and the sticks are returned to center, it only removes the directional thrust, rather than attempting to arrest the exisiting motion by applying opposite thrust - i.e. it coasts.

True non-synthetic control has not existed (as far as I'm aware) since the manual mode with the NAZA FC on the P2. In that mode the RC effectively controlled the four motors, and the FC did nothing by way of stabilization. It was very unstable, but an interesting experience.

 

[DKG13CC]

Just to be clear we are not talking about compass loss or failure which is essential for controlled flight, we are talking about GPS loss (ie position vs direction).

Yeah ive always referred to a GPS as a digital compass. But we do have two separate units. I see how that could be confusing. Post updated.

 

[Loz]

Also worth mentioning that proactively selecting ATTI mode (vs loosing GPS) is very useful in certain circumstances like flying indoors / under cover (even under a bridge, through a tunnel) where intermittent GPS signal & resulting positioning would not be helpful for flight stability. Perhaps stating the obvious here, just reminding that 'no GPS' flight can be a good thing, accordingly DJI firmware software caters for these flight modes and will do regarding NFZ

 

[K9VXV]

Thank you to all for your clarification! The part that confused me was this on page 53 of the previous P4P manual which states

"When operating in P-mode, height limits, distance limits, and No-Fly Zones function concurrently to manage flight safety. In A-mode, only height limits are in effect, which by default prevent the aircraft altitude from exceeding 1640 feet (500 m) ."

So we now know from evidence presented here. This is not the case. In A mode you are restricted by NFZ boundaries as well.