Changing P3S maximum height without camera and accessing flight log

[ekrabappel]

This thread has been posted at different times but I still have not seen a reliable answer so here goes.
We have 3 P3S drones that are used for both multimedia studies and drone pilot paractice. We need the camera for the multimedia studies but do not want the camera for pilot practice (already have 2 smashed cameras waiting for repair). Also, first person flying in public space is illegal in Australia unless in an authorised area or with permission from CASA. The drone practical exam is all VLS so we actively discourage students from flying first person. Now the sticky part...
We recently had a P3S drone that was being used in our tennis courts. The drone suddenly ascended and headed away from the operator. The instructor took over and brought it down in emergency descent. When it landed the legs and camera were smashed. At the time the drone ascended it was only 3-5 meters away from the operator and 2 meters off the ground. Suspect the battery was getting low but if an auto land procedure was initiated it should have landed where it was as it was within 20m of the operator and start point. If for some reason it was undergoing a RTH then why was it heading away from the start point? In short, I need to access the flight log but without the camera operating this is proving difficult. Soo...
How can I access the log without using DJI Go? Also, we intend to take the cameras off for pilot training but need to be able to change the maximum height for different venues. Again, this seems to be reliant on a having the camera installed. Is there a work around?
Should also mention that I have had this issue before. I could not change settings in DJI Go (camera not connected) with a P3A but when I installed the fixed camera I could change settings and the drone was fully functional. I have read posts where people have said there must be something wrong with the drone. Well, not in that case.
Any advice appreciated. Thanks

 

[Meta4]

Also, first person flying in public space is illegal in Australia unless in an authorised area or with permission from CASA.
The drone practical exam is all VLS so we actively discourage students from flying first person.

CASA rules don't prohibit having a camera view. Having a camera fitted and a screen to look at is different from FPV flying.
Would you make a student driver wear a blindfold? I think it's ill advised to remove cameras for teaching.
Apart from being able to see what the drone is pointing at, the app view gives the pilot all the telemetry that is important to properly and safely pilot the drone.
Important information like speed, altitude, battery level, error messages, warnings etc.
If you'd had a camera view on the problem drone you might have been able to see what the problem was at the time and avoid the problem.

The instructor took over and brought it down in emergency descent. When it landed the legs and camera were smashed. At the time the drone ascended it was only 3-5 meters away from the operator and 2 meters off the ground. Suspect the battery was getting low but if an auto land procedure was initiated it should have landed where it was as it was within 20m of the operator and start point. If for some reason it was undergoing a RTH then why was it heading away from the start point?

What do you mean by emergency descent? Do you mean he crashed it with a CSC action?
Drones that mysteriously ascend are commonly in unexpected low battery RTH.
(Knowing how low your battery is, is just one example of the value of the app view with telemetry)
When/if you can get the flight data the cause of the incident should become clear.

I need to access the flight log but without the camera operating this is proving difficult. Soo...
How can I access the log without using DJI Go?

Were you were flying with the Go app? Is there a flight record for the flight in question?
If there is, it should be a simple matter to upload the flight record to Phantomhelp and see what the issues were.
To do that, go to DJI Flight Log Viewer
Follow the instructions there to upload your flight record from your phone or tablet.
Come back and post a link to the report it provides and someone might be able to analyse it and give you an understanding of the cause of the incident.

If there is no flight record in the app, the Phantom has another recording on an internal data recorder.
You can access that by connecting the Phantom to a computer and using the app to set the Phantom to Flight Data Mode.
That file is a .dat file and is not so user friendly but if you can upload it to dropbox or similar, and post a link, there are some members here that are good at analysing it.

 

[tevek]

@Meta4 has given you a good head start in tracking down your flight log for the flight in question but I'm confused as to the logic of flying a PS3 without a camera. Surely part of any type of training must include the use of the app to give the operator a much better understanding of controlling the drone and understanding the data on the screen on your device. The crash you noted involved a PS3 with a camera so I'm back to being confused and VLOS is a separate issue to FPV and certainly wouldn't be a challenge flying around a tennis court, car park or footy field. Look forward to seeing the flight log when you get a chance to post it up.

 

[ekrabappel]

Mega4 - We are totally aware CASA does not prohibit having a camera view, but as stated, it is illegal to fly a drone using the camera (First Person). Visual Line of Sight (VLS) flying is specified in the CASA regulations. The pilot should be looking at the drone at all times (unless using a spotter). To pass the license test students must be able to get a drone home that is at a distance where they cannot see the camera or drone markings and be able to fly to approximate heights and distances without the aid of an app. And the sudents should be able to know what the drone is pointing at without an app (those flashing lights are handy!). Yes, the app provides useful telemetry but does not provide the skills required to pass the test. Students should be looking at the drone at all times so I would hardly say it is like driving with a blindfold.
Yes, it was a CSC. The battery was low as the transmitter was beeping however the drone was only a few meters off the ground and close to the operator so it should have just landed without performing a RTH. That is what the drones have done previously. Unfortunately we have to get the student's flight hours up before the exam date so we need to use maximise the battery time so we usually fly a few more minutes after the battery alarm starts.
We were not using an app at the time of the crash.
I did try installing the DJI Go app on my desktop but was told there were no compatible devices detected for the DJI Go download. Will try to it of a tablet. Thanks for the advice.

 

[tevek]

We are totally aware CASA does not prohibit having a camera view, but as stated, it is illegal to fly a drone using the camera (First Person). Visual Line of Sight (VLS) flying is specified in the CASA regulations. The pilot should be looking at the drone at all times (unless using a spotter). To pass the license test students must be able to get a drone home that is at a distance where they cannot see the camera or drone markings and be able to fly to approximate heights and distances without the aid of an app. And the sudents should be able to know what the drone is pointing at without an app (those flashing lights are handy!). Yes, the app provides useful telemetry but does not provide the skills required to pass the test. Students should be looking at the drone at all times so I would hardly say it is like driving with a blindfold.
Yes, it was a CSC. The battery was low as the transmitter was beeping however the drone was only a few meters off the ground and close to the operator so it should have just landed without performing a RTH. That is what the drones have done previously. Unfortunately we have to get the student's flight hours up before the exam date so we need to use maximise the battery time so we usually fly a few more minutes after the battery alarm starts.
We were not using an app at the time of the crash.
I did try installing the DJI Go app on my desktop but was told there were no compatible devices detected for the DJI Go download. Will try to it of a tablet.

Hmm, this is getting interesting. If you were not using the GO app at the time the links provided earlier won't work as it interrogates the info from the flight records in the app (the app can only be downloaded on portable phones/tablets) With respect to the relationship between FPV and using the camera, I suspect there may be some confusion. You can fly all day using the camera view within VLOS and not be in breach of any CASA rules providing you also abide by the SOC laid out in the CASA document. FPV on the other hand requires a spotter as the wearer of the goggles etc has no situational awareness of the drone and its surroundings and this may cause problems in relation to responding to other aircraft etc.

 

[ekrabappel]

Tevek - Yes there is a small component in the coursework regarding telemetry but the licence theory is in effect the same as a plane or helicopter licence. I guess CASA is a bit behind the eight ball in terms of creating drone specific licencing course work. As to flying around the tennis court and an oval, it is exactly what the students need. Thre pract test is entirely about the ability to fly (control) a drone using just the transmitter and eye sight. Squares, figures of eight, touch and go etc. No apps allowed!!! Thanks for the advice - will post log when I get it.

 

[Meta4]

Mega4 - We are totally aware CASA does not prohibit having a camera view, but as stated, it is illegal to fly a drone using the camera (First Person). Visual Line of Sight (VLS) flying is specified in the CASA regulations.

You may be aware of the regulations but you''ve misunderstood them.
It is definitely not illegal to use the camera view.
There's a huge difference between using the camera view and relying on it entirely or strapping on a set of goggles.

Students should be looking at the drone at all times so I would hardly say it is like driving with a blindfold

Would you think it appropriate to cover the instrument panel for a student driver ?
That's what you are doing and it's pointless.
If you want them to fly blind for a test later, your students would learn a lot better if they had access to the liveview and telemetry.

Unfortunately we have to get the student's flight hours up before the exam date so we need to use maximise the battery time so we usually fly a few more minutes after the battery alarm starts.
We were not using an app at the time of the crash.
I did try installing the DJI Go app on my desktop but was told there were no compatible devices detected for the DJI Go download. Will try to it of a tablet. Thanks for the advice.

Trying to "maximise battery time" is a great way to run into problems.
Having no idea of the battery level is just irresponsible.
The app is for iOS or Android devices but if you were not flying with the app, the only flight record will be the internal .dat file.
The benefits of using the app include being easily able to check and change settings as well as looking into flight incidents.

I can't understand how you think that crippling the drone, and handicapping the students is good for learning.
It's extremely misguided thinking.

 

[ekrabappel]

Tevek - I would not interpret the CASA regulations in that way. To fly a drone by using the camera view is first person regardless of whether the camera view is on a phone or in goggles. VLOS is in place because you should be looking at the drone when flying, not at the camera view. If a plane is approaching your drone you will not necessarily (probably won't) see it if flying first person. It's about safety, eyes on the drone and what's around it at all times.

 

[ekrabappel]

Meta4 - Hmmm.. battery goes in fully charged. When one bar left (about 15 minutes) the transmitter emits an alarm. We can also see the leds on the battery during flight. Hardly a case of no idea what the battery charge is. Agreed running batteries low is problematic but we do it out of necessity, not choice.
Considering the students must fly "crippled" drones in the test I find it odd that teaching the students with "crippled" drones is deemed misguided.

 

[tevek]

Tevek - I would not interpret the CASA regulations in that way. To fly a drone by using the camera view is first person regardless of whether the camera view is on a phone or in goggles. VLOS is in place because you should be looking at the drone when flying, not at the camera view. If a plane is approaching your drone you will not necessarily (probably won't) see it if flying first person. It's about safety, eyes on the drone and what's around it at all times.

I'm sorry but I beg to differ. You can certainly fly VLOS with your camera view displayed on your device and not be in breach of any CASA regulations as noted above and by @Meta4 (he is extremely more experienced in these matters than I). I'm not suggesting that you bury your face in it as that would be counter intuitive, become a possible FPV issue and a waste of time investing in a drone. As it turns out, the shop where I purchased my first phantom and subsequent accessories for my later phantoms, run training days including training and assessment for either ReOC or RePL accreditation and they certainly don't remove cameras or any other fittings from theirs or the owners own drones.

 

[Meta4]

Meta4 - Hmmm.. battery goes in fully charged. When one bar left (about 15 minutes) the transmitter emits an alarm. We can also see the leds on the battery during flight. Hardly a case of no idea what the battery charge is. Agreed running batteries low is problematic but we do it out of necessity, not choice.
Considering the students must fly "crippled" drones in the test I find it odd that teaching the students with "crippled" drones is deemed misguided.

You seem to have it all worked out and with your very misguided attitude, I can't see that anyone can help you.
Good luck and I pity your students.

 

[ekrabappel]

Tevek, I never said it was illegal to have a camera view, but it is illegal to fly using the camera view (first person) and not have your eyes on the drone. As I said, you must be able to see any aircraft etc approaching your drone and you cannot do this if you only see what is in the camera view. The only reason we are removing the cameras is because they get smashed by the students although they will not have any telemetry available in the RePL test so it is not a bad thing to get them used to flying without it.

 

[tevek]

Meta4 - Hmmm.. battery goes in fully charged. When one bar left (about 15 minutes) the transmitter emits an alarm. We can also see the leds on the battery during flight. Hardly a case of no idea what the battery charge is. Agreed running batteries low is problematic but we do it out of necessity, not choice.
Considering the students must fly "crippled" drones in the test I find it odd that teaching the students with "crippled" drones is deemed misguided.

Your instructor would also certainly be aware that the LED lights and indeed the % indicator on the app, when you're using it, are only a general indication of remaining capacity in the battery. Of much more importance is the battery voltage which most of us have selected on the app. When the first alarm goes off at 30%, I'm heading straight home as the auto land which is set at 10% can vary wildly depending on the type of flying that I'm doing. Not interested in hammering the battery and running it down to the critical setting, not good for the battery and certainly a precursor for losing your investment.
Anyway this is not addressing seeing your flight log and determining what happened.

 

[ekrabappel]

Thanks Tevek. I think we are both on the same page re FPV. Sorry for misinterptreting what you were saying. Just got find the cable!

Meta4 - sorry you decided to take my comments personally. There is more than one way to skin the proverbial cat (or teach drone flight).

 

[tevek]

Tevek, I never said it was illegal to have a camera view, but it is illegal to fly using the camera view (first person) and not have your eyes on the drone. As I said, you must be able to see any aircraft etc approaching your drone and you cannot do this if you only see what is in the camera view. The only reason we are removing the cameras is because they get smashed by the students although they will not have any telemetry available in the RePL test so it is not a bad thing to get them used to flying without it.

Without getting bogged down in semantics, I understand where you are going but I've yet to meet a drone pilot, unless flying FPV, that looks at his/her screen 100% when flying. I certainly don't. I glance down at it occasionally in much the same fashion as when driving a car to check for my speed and any other warnings that may pop up. The app and camera view works in the same fashion. Not sure why you cannot simply put tape or a blanked off lens cover over the camera lens and build a cage around the frame and fly normally. The drone shop I mentioned earlier also developed a cage system for his P4 that he used when filming in either tunnels or doing shaft inspections. Looked a bit weird but certainly did the job.

 

[tevek]

Thanks Tevek. I think we are both on the same page re FPV. Sorry for misinterptreting what you were saying. Just got find the cable!

Meta4 - sorry you decided to take my comments personally. There is more than one way to skin the proverbial cat (or teach drone flight).

Nah it's all good, however I think that Meta4 has bailed out which is unfortunate as he is one of the few gurus on the forum that is able to interrogate flight data with any degree of accuracy.

 

[Meta4]

Meta4 - sorry you decided to take my comments personally. There is more than one way to skin the proverbial cat (or teach drone flight).

I didn't take it personally.
But I think it would do you good to consider another way to skin your cat.
It would be of considerable benefit to your students.
It wouldn't be too hard to slip a paper bag over the screen if you wanted to for the test.

 

[ekrabappel]

Tevek - Yes, good (qualified?) drone pilots glance at the screen however so many people seem to buy drones and fly them using only the camera. I reckon most of the drone "fails" on youtube are caused by pilots flying FPV and running into things. Interested in the cage idea. At present removing the cameras is cheaper than fixing smashed cameras. Interesting that DJI seems to have the camera view fixed with the App in that you need the camera functioning to enable the other information. There are certainly instances where a camera might be substituted for another device. Is this the same with DJI high end drones?

 

[ekrabappel]

Meta4 - Have been removing the cameras as a means to prevent damage more than a teaching aid. This is the first time we have run the course and got off to a late start so pushing it to get the students 5 hours flight time in before the test. Hence the battery issue. Next year we will run the course over a longer period so will get more flight time including use of apps etc. and will not need to push the batteries so hard. We now have 2 out of 4 drones with busted cameras. We can still (and do) fly them but can't use the app. Our main concern next year is the fact we will be running a multimedia course using the drones and we need the cameras for that so can't afford to have cameras out of action. Camera removal is one option although Tevek mentioned a cage device that seems promising.

 

[stuka75]

Why not use cheaper non camera drones for basic flight training and saving wear and tear on the camera drones?